Comments on: Prayer of the Week http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=prayer-of-the-week-4 thoughts from someone dealing with doubt Sat, 14 Aug 2010 03:30:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Mike aka MonolithTMA http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-217 Mike aka MonolithTMA Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:18:34 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-217 Good thoughts Kyle2. I tend to think people are pretty good at making their own hell. Did you ever see What Dreams May Come? I always found the concept of hell in that movie interesting. Good thoughts Kyle2. I tend to think people are pretty good at making their own hell. Did you ever see What Dreams May Come? I always found the concept of hell in that movie interesting.

]]> By: Kyle2 http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-216 Kyle2 Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:48:08 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-216 "If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God." - Mike "If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite." - David "If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I’d say he has some issues." - Mike Agreed. Hell remains a problematic concept for me. I definitely oppose any view of hell as a fiery eternal torture. Retributive punishment, having no redemptive purpose, does not cohere with a God of love. As a kid, did you ever see how close you could hold your hand to a fire before you couldn't take the pain anymore? Remember the sharpness of the pain, the intensity - and this from a distance! Or the people who jumped out of the towers on 9/11 rather than be burnt by the intense flames? How much more painful and cruel would a fiery hell be? Yeah I know how Christians respond to this: God is holy also, and must punish sin. But he doesn't. Certain theologies have abstracted justice into something that constrains God, so that God has to punish all wrong doing in order to maintain the moral order of the universe or his internal justice. They even say that the punishment of sinners adds to the glory of God. Bunk. This has led to the popular but misguided penal satisfaction view of atonement in which Jesus is punished by God in our place, so that his justice might be satisfied. But contrary to popular Christian thought, this is not the only view of the atonement. One response to this is that it is all nonsense, so let's be done with it and not worry about the details. Could be the way to go. Another possibility is that this view of hell and God and salvation is not biblical - I know, a big "who cares" from those who view the Bible as only a collection of ancient superstitious myths. But for those who are wrestling with considering the Bible to be in some way normative to the Christian faith (I agree modern notions of inerrancy are untenable), the biblical portrayal of God is important. This God is shown to punish in order to transform lives, but not for the sake of punishment itself. Corrective punishment, not retributive. This God is self-sacrificial and somehow takes the sin of the world upon himself in a supreme act of identification with humanity and lifts us up to become like him. The cross is not about God violently enabling himself to forgive us without upsetting the balance of cosmic justice. So what the hell is hell all about? I see it as separation from God. But as Mike points out, this still sucks as an eternal destiny for a choice made in the flash of one lifetime. C.S. Lewis wrote a book titled the Great Divorce which depicted hell as a grey, drab world. Every day a bus would come that would take willing passengers to heaven. No one ever got on for various reasons. I tend to think that hell does not have to be eternal. That the God who loves and wants reconciliation continues drawing those separated from him. The biblical support for the eternal duration of hell is far from definite. Keeping the door open is more consistent with the God revealed in Jesus. My last point is I really don't think Jesus was looking for people to follow him out of fear of hell. If we say that the threat of hell is the only motivator for decent behavior then we are in trouble. “If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God.” – Mike
“If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite.” – David
“If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I’d say he has some issues.” – Mike
Agreed.
Hell remains a problematic concept for me. I definitely oppose any view of hell as a fiery eternal torture. Retributive punishment, having no redemptive purpose, does not cohere with a God of love. As a kid, did you ever see how close you could hold your hand to a fire before you couldn’t take the pain anymore? Remember the sharpness of the pain, the intensity – and this from a distance! Or the people who jumped out of the towers on 9/11 rather than be burnt by the intense flames? How much more painful and cruel would a fiery hell be?
Yeah I know how Christians respond to this: God is holy also, and must punish sin. But he doesn’t. Certain theologies have abstracted justice into something that constrains God, so that God has to punish all wrong doing in order to maintain the moral order of the universe or his internal justice. They even say that the punishment of sinners adds to the glory of God. Bunk. This has led to the popular but misguided penal satisfaction view of atonement in which Jesus is punished by God in our place, so that his justice might be satisfied. But contrary to popular Christian thought, this is not the only view of the atonement.
One response to this is that it is all nonsense, so let’s be done with it and not worry about the details. Could be the way to go. Another possibility is that this view of hell and God and salvation is not biblical – I know, a big “who cares” from those who view the Bible as only a collection of ancient superstitious myths. But for those who are wrestling with considering the Bible to be in some way normative to the Christian faith (I agree modern notions of inerrancy are untenable), the biblical portrayal of God is important. This God is shown to punish in order to transform lives, but not for the sake of punishment itself. Corrective punishment, not retributive. This God is self-sacrificial and somehow takes the sin of the world upon himself in a supreme act of identification with humanity and lifts us up to become like him. The cross is not about God violently enabling himself to forgive us without upsetting the balance of cosmic justice.
So what the hell is hell all about? I see it as separation from God. But as Mike points out, this still sucks as an eternal destiny for a choice made in the flash of one lifetime. C.S. Lewis wrote a book titled the Great Divorce which depicted hell as a grey, drab world. Every day a bus would come that would take willing passengers to heaven. No one ever got on for various reasons. I tend to think that hell does not have to be eternal. That the God who loves and wants reconciliation continues drawing those separated from him. The biblical support for the eternal duration of hell is far from definite. Keeping the door open is more consistent with the God revealed in Jesus.
My last point is I really don’t think Jesus was looking for people to follow him out of fear of hell. If we say that the threat of hell is the only motivator for decent behavior then we are in trouble.

]]> By: Mike aka MonolithTMA http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-213 Mike aka MonolithTMA Thu, 02 Apr 2009 23:30:20 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-213 Ahh, the depravity of man, it's funny how non-Christian societies haven't destroyed themselves yet isn't it? If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I'd say he has some issues. "the only reason we live in a “civilized” society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil." That's hardly the only reason, that may prevent some people, but most people wouldn't run off raping and pillaging if there were no God, only Christians seem to think that and frankly they scare me. If God is the only thing that stops them from being monsters, then what happens if they stop believing in God? Ahh, the depravity of man, it’s funny how non-Christian societies haven’t destroyed themselves yet isn’t it?

If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I’d say he has some issues.

“the only reason we live in a “civilized” society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil.”

That’s hardly the only reason, that may prevent some people, but most people wouldn’t run off raping and pillaging if there were no God, only Christians seem to think that and frankly they scare me. If God is the only thing that stops them from being monsters, then what happens if they stop believing in God?

]]> By: David http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-212 David Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:15:07 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-212 "As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish." - Mark But it's an off-the-cuff remark. That was my point. Sometimes in scripture, a miracle is mentioned, without the author trying to make a point. It's just mentioned in passing, because the author assumes the reader will know exactly what he's talking about. This is far more believable, than if the miracle is mentioned in order to make a point. "How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime?" - Mike All sins are against God, not us. We are punished based on whom our sin is against. If I kill a cockroach, the neighbors dog, a neighbor, or the president... I will suffer different consequences. If God is infinitely good, worthy, holy, and just ... wouldn't any sin against him deserve infinite punishment? The question of justice only arises upon assuming God is not as majestic and glorious as the Bible claims. If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite. When presented with the question of hell, there are two paths to reconciliation. "Wow, Hell is bad, so God must be good, and we are evil." or "We're good, so hell must be unfair." Personally, I think reality and scripture support the first. Nothing captures what humans are like scripture does... the only reason we live in a "civilized" society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil. Look what happens when humans have nothing to lose because they are already impoverished, or the laws do not condemn evil. (I'm sorry if you don't like my obvious example: Nazi Germany) “As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish.” – Mark

But it’s an off-the-cuff remark. That was my point. Sometimes in scripture, a miracle is mentioned, without the author trying to make a point. It’s just mentioned in passing, because the author assumes the reader will know exactly what he’s talking about. This is far more believable, than if the miracle is mentioned in order to make a point.

“How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime?” – Mike

All sins are against God, not us. We are punished based on whom our sin is against. If I kill a cockroach, the neighbors dog, a neighbor, or the president… I will suffer different consequences. If God is infinitely good, worthy, holy, and just … wouldn’t any sin against him deserve infinite punishment? The question of justice only arises upon assuming God is not as majestic and glorious as the Bible claims.

If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite.

When presented with the question of hell, there are two paths to reconciliation. “Wow, Hell is bad, so God must be good, and we are evil.” or “We’re good, so hell must be unfair.” Personally, I think reality and scripture support the first. Nothing captures what humans are like scripture does… the only reason we live in a “civilized” society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil. Look what happens when humans have nothing to lose because they are already impoverished, or the laws do not condemn evil. (I’m sorry if you don’t like my obvious example: Nazi Germany)

]]> By: Mike aka MonolithTMA http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-172 Mike aka MonolithTMA Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:49:15 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-172 “Disappointment with God” by Philip Yancey was one of the final nails in the coffin of my faith. Natalie, defying God's will is sin, if my only sin in my entire life was to steal a cookie, and I did not repent and accept Christ, I would go to hell...for stealing a cookie. A simplification yes, but a true representation of what the Bible teaches. How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime? “Disappointment with God” by Philip Yancey was one of the final nails in the coffin of my faith.

Natalie, defying God’s will is sin, if my only sin in my entire life was to steal a cookie, and I did not repent and accept Christ, I would go to hell…for stealing a cookie. A simplification yes, but a true representation of what the Bible teaches. How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime?

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-162 Mark Lefers Mon, 23 Mar 2009 01:09:40 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-162 Natalie, Thanks for the book suggestion. Unfortunately, my doubt is more characterized as intellectual doubt. Sure there is the emotional side, but it arises out of my questioning and unbelief. Emotional doubt is a significant fraction of those who doubt, so maybe someone else can be helped by that. Thanks again. Natalie,

Thanks for the book suggestion. Unfortunately, my doubt is more characterized as intellectual doubt. Sure there is the emotional side, but it arises out of my questioning and unbelief. Emotional doubt is a significant fraction of those who doubt, so maybe someone else can be helped by that. Thanks again.

]]> By: Natalie http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-159 Natalie Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:24:50 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-159 Hi Mike, Your last comment reminded me of something. I am the oldest in my family. My bio brother is close behind. A couple of years ago, my parents adopted four children. My oldest adopted brother is always complaining to me of all the freedoms he won't have until he's older because of my behavior as a teenager. I wouldn't neccessarily say that my brother is being punished for what I did as a teenager, as much as my parents have changed their parenting style because of what I did. In the same way, while the book of Romans does make clear that while we are all "in Adam" and therefore have inherited a sinful nature, we all have enough sinful behavior in our life to condemn ourselves. While the world itself changed as a result of the Fall, God doesn't punish us for what Adam and Eve did. He punishes us for what we have done. Yet, because God is merciful He made a way for us to be made righteous- in Christ. Our sin is covered by His righteousness. For all those who are in Christ, God's justice is satisfied. ~Natalie Hi Mike,
Your last comment reminded me of something. I am the oldest in my family. My bio brother is close behind. A couple of years ago, my parents adopted four children. My oldest adopted brother is always complaining to me of all the freedoms he won’t have until he’s older because of my behavior as a teenager. I wouldn’t neccessarily say that my brother is being punished for what I did as a teenager, as much as my parents have changed their parenting style because of what I did.

In the same way, while the book of Romans does make clear that while we are all “in Adam” and therefore have inherited a sinful nature, we all have enough sinful behavior in our life to condemn ourselves. While the world itself changed as a result of the Fall, God doesn’t punish us for what Adam and Eve did. He punishes us for what we have done. Yet, because God is merciful He made a way for us to be made righteous- in Christ. Our sin is covered by His righteousness. For all those who are in Christ, God’s justice is satisfied.
~Natalie

]]> By: Natalie http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-158 Natalie Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:03:52 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-158 Hi Mark, As a parent, my "goodness" is not defined solely by my love. Many times, I let my children make bad choices and then allow them to experience the consequence. Do I warn them first of what will happen? Absolutely. Am I powerful enough to physically restrain them from making those choices. Sure. Does it mean that I am a "bad" parent because I allow them to make their own choices? Or that I don't love them because I allow them to experience the consequences of those choices? One book in particular that helped me with the emotional side of my doubt was "Disappointment with God" by Philip Yancey. It also actually helped me to understand the Bible as one story, rather than all of the miscellaneous stories of various heroes I learned growing up. Hi Mark,
As a parent, my “goodness” is not defined solely by my love. Many times, I let my children make bad choices and then allow them to experience the consequence. Do I warn them first of what will happen? Absolutely. Am I powerful enough to physically restrain them from making those choices. Sure. Does it mean that I am a “bad” parent because I allow them to make their own choices? Or that I don’t love them because I allow them to experience the consequences of those choices?

One book in particular that helped me with the emotional side of my doubt was “Disappointment with God” by Philip Yancey. It also actually helped me to understand the Bible as one story, rather than all of the miscellaneous stories of various heroes I learned growing up.

]]> By: Mike aka MonolithTMA http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-151 Mike aka MonolithTMA Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:41:50 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-151 I know you said it's a loose analogy, but let's try and tighten it up a bit. ;-) "The Christian point of view is that we screwed up our relationship with God, but we can’t fix it." Actually, it's that Adam and Eve screwed it up, so in your family analogy it's like our big brother and sister were rebellious, so now we are all punished with a cursed world, and then we have to make a choice between Jesus and not-Jesus. If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God. Having been a Christian for 20 years, at first it was hard to read the Bible without all the years of training that made the Bible fit together and rationalized all the bad parts, but the more I read, the more I was able to do it. The Bible has some good stuff in it, but a lot of it is rather sick and twisted. This doesn't lead me to atheism, but rather to the belief that if God exists, the Bible is certainly not his inerrant word, unless he's a madman. I know you said it’s a loose analogy, but let’s try and tighten it up a bit. ;-)

“The Christian point of view is that we screwed up our relationship with God, but we can’t fix it.”

Actually, it’s that Adam and Eve screwed it up, so in your family analogy it’s like our big brother and sister were rebellious, so now we are all punished with a cursed world, and then we have to make a choice between Jesus and not-Jesus. If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God.

Having been a Christian for 20 years, at first it was hard to read the Bible without all the years of training that made the Bible fit together and rationalized all the bad parts, but the more I read, the more I was able to do it.

The Bible has some good stuff in it, but a lot of it is rather sick and twisted. This doesn’t lead me to atheism, but rather to the belief that if God exists, the Bible is certainly not his inerrant word, unless he’s a madman.

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://christiandoubt.com/2009/03/08/prayer-of-the-week-4/comment-page-1/#comment-148 Mark Lefers Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:13:53 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=193#comment-148 David, As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish. Because a 3 foot bass is HUGE! That would maybe even be a world record. I wouldn't say I wouldn't believe in a 3 foot bass, because I think it is technically possible. I've seen a bass before, I've seen large basses before, I've seen fishing shows in which people have caught large basses, I know there are other larger fishes out there, I know about mutations, I know about population pools, etc. So it wouldn't be an insurmountable leap to believe in a 3 foot bass. However to make the leap to believe in something not seen, can't be tested, can't be proven, makes extraordinary claims, etc. is a different story. David,
As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish. Because a 3 foot bass is HUGE! That would maybe even be a world record. I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t believe in a 3 foot bass, because I think it is technically possible. I’ve seen a bass before, I’ve seen large basses before, I’ve seen fishing shows in which people have caught large basses, I know there are other larger fishes out there, I know about mutations, I know about population pools, etc. So it wouldn’t be an insurmountable leap to believe in a 3 foot bass. However to make the leap to believe in something not seen, can’t be tested, can’t be proven, makes extraordinary claims, etc. is a different story.

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