Prayer of the Week
Mar 8th, 2009 by Mark Lefers
Why, O Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? I know I can’t do this on my own.The passages I’ve read, the prayers I’ve prayed, the blogs I’ve visited, the videos I’ve watched, and the books I’ve read have not helped me yet. I still sit here in my unbelief, wanting some faith. Please Lord, I can not do this, I need your help.
Hi Mark,
My name is Nat Napoletano. I am a 50+ year old engineer working for Lockheed Martin in Ohio. I am in the same situation as you, down to some of the small details. I had thought about creating a web page like yours in order to connect with analytic Christians who have managed to overcome their skepticism. You have done a fine job with yours and I doubt if I could do better. With your permission I would like to participate on “Christian Doubt”.
I am sincerely seeking spirituality. I have been trying to understand Christianity since I was raised with it. The problems began when I started reading the bible on my own. I started to find the parallel passages and was shocked because this was never brought out in my church where passages were carefully selected. And like you, I can see that the evolutionary model is supported by so much evidence and refuted by so very little, that the authors of the Genesis stories in Gen 1 & 2 must have been superstitious men making a guess or else God wanted us to have this myth for some reason. But either way it damages the “original sin” doctrine.
I have studied the Bible, Bible history, and other ancient and modern writings to some extent. The more I study, the worse it all seems. Recently I email a bible scholar from a major university and asked about how he dealt with some of the Bible’s flaws. He wrote back a nice response (I would be happy to share with you) that says he peruses more meditation, prayer and ritual when he has trouble with doubt. I have not really started too much of that because I an natured differently, I lead with my brain. You may be able to relate.
Anyway, thank you for your efforts and I expect to occasionally leave ideas, information and opinions.
Nat
I hope you get an answer or find peace in no answer. It’s been over a year for me, and still silence. The silence, once accepted, has been rather peaceful.
Hello Nat,
It’s good to hear that you are sincerely seeking. I think that is important. Going about it half heatedly is not worth it, and may not work. I keep Jeremiah 29:13 close to mind in my struggles. It’s true that evolution damages original sin in how we currently view it, but there might be a different way to think about it. I’ve read one book that tries to bring evolution together with the concept of original sin (Perspectives on an Evolving Creation)
I think it’s hard to have faith with a skeptical/analytical mind, but there are people who have done so. I’d recomend following RJS posts over at Jesus Creed.
Mike,
Do you ever doubt in believing there is no god? Even though I’m stuck in the middle, I pretty sure that I’ll never fully believe that there is no god. If I was an atheist I think I would doubt that too. Maybe I’m just by default a doubter, or maybe a better term would be skeptical.
I don’t think there is an atheist in the world who would claim to be omniscient and thus able to know if no God exists.
I am far from certain that God does not exist. I would not be surprised at all if God exists, however I will be quite shocked if the God of modern conservative Christianity exists.
Reading the Bible now is rather relaxing in that I don’t have read difficult passages and try to figure out why God did some of the monstrous things he did in the old testament.
The Bible becomes a lot easier to read if you don’t try to squeeze it into the box of innerancy. God is a lot more interesting if you don’t try to pin him down like far too many do.
Hi Mark,
It’s late and I should be in bed, but I’m glad I found your blog and I feel compelled to leave you a note.
Doubt – real, deep, soul-shaking doubt, is so hard, and so lonely. For me, at least, one of the hardest parts has been interacting with Christians who seem to say “It’s OK to doubt and question, but only so long as you arrive at the ‘right’ answer in the end.”
Personally, I have been on a long, slow journey away from faith, beginning with some huge spiritual disappointments I experienced during my childhood and teen years. Some of my doubts are intellectual — places where Christian theology, or the Bible, doesn’t make sense. Other times I doubt because other Christians appear to enjoy experiences that I do not, and I am forced to wonder whether I am unworthy, or inept, or whether the other people are delusional.
And yet, I think I may have reached a turning point, in this past year. Doctrinally I’m all over the place. Sometimes the only thing I can say is that I believe in God. But, I realize I have been so caught up in turning over the questions in my mind that I’ve missed the fact that I do have some sort of relationship with God. More than that, I look back over my life, and my experiences convince me that God has been consistently pushing me toward developing habits of mercy and generosity. If, in spite of my doubts, God has been interacting with me this entire time, perhaps I’m not in as bad a place as I thought? Understanding that I have “something” with God (whoever he is), I don’t feel so much pressure to “get it right” for the sake of my soul, and Christianity feels like a bigger tent that maybe has room for me after all.
To put it another way, Christianity seems to me like a lot to swallow whole, especially when it is encumbered by 2000 years of theology and doctrine. Now that I’m not trying so hard to force it down my gullet all at once, I’m starting to recognize the subtle, mysterious, confusing, yet persistent reality of God in my life.
I’m hope this is meaningful, or better yet, helpful, in some way. If not, I apologize. I’m going to bed.
Gideon,
Thanks for staying up late to write your comment. I’m glad that you are making progress in your doubt. You said that you do have some sort of relationship with God, and that you have been convicted by some experiences. Would you care to explain what that looks like? Aren’t experiences rather subjective?
I liked what you said that Christianity is a big tent, with a lot of different ways to live it out. I think too many stumble on the fundamentalist interpretations, when there are many other forms of Christianity that would better fit their beliefs.
Thanks for commenting!
Mark,
I’ll try to elaborate a little about the “relationship” I believe I have with God. First, you’re right – it’s very subjective, and it’s very intuitive. It could simply be that I am interacting with my own emotions, etc.
That said, here’s what it looks like to me. The best way to describe it is a pull. It comes, it goes, all on its own schedule. I don’t experience it very often, and I can’t seem to produce it when I want it. But I’ve got enough years under my belt that I can now look back and see that it has been a consistent feature. The pull is toward gratitude, compassion, and worship. Sometimes even when my mind is in the midst of great skepticism, I’ll suddenly feel a need to worship. Not very often, though. I notice that when this pull comes, I feel inclined to operate less selfishly.
Could all this be in my own head? Yep. But it could also be an experience with the Divine. I lean toward the latter view for several reasons:
First, I don’t seem to have any control over when I have these moments.
Second, they are consistent in their theme. The pull is always toward the same things, and always produces an improvement either in my own behavior or in my interactions with others.
Third, there have been a few times when it seems as though a person has come to me seeking help, almost as though he or she had been sent directly. The most recent experience seems to have been the most important in my journey. It was about 9:30pm, and I was in the process of complaining to my wife about my inability to tangibly experience God, how it was all just in my head. As soon as the words were out of my mouth, someone knocked on the door. It was an old woman. She explained that she had just been granted custody of her grandchildren and didn’t have any food in the house, or any money, and was there any work she could do for me, to earn a little money? We gave her some food and some money, and she left. I spent the next day regretting that I hadn’t talked to her more to find out if I could actually help her in a more significant way. But my wife pointed out what I had completely missed: that this woman had appeared exactly at the moment I had complained about my inability to experience God.
Now, I can’t prove that the pull isn’t just emotions, or that my experience with the old woman wasn’t a coincidence. But they all form a consistent, repeating pattern. And in our day-to-day lives, consistency and repeatability are the primary tools we use to determine what we will trust, to distinguish between dreams and waking reality.
So, I have drawn the conclusion that some being or force is interacting with me. There is nothing unreasonable about that. I have met people from different spiritual backgrounds who have described their own interactions with something outside the natural realm. And I am moved by CS Lewis’ argument that the nearly-universal human appetite for the Divine is strong evidence for the existence of the object of that appetite.
So far there has been nothing necessarily Christian about this interaction with God. But this pull, these experiences, seem to point to a God who is good, and cares very much about people, and gratitude, and seems a lot like Jesus. It’s hard to trust sometimes, because my intellectual trajectory is toward total agnosticism, but my spiritual trajectory still points toward Jesus.
Gideon
Mike,
Thanks for being so honest. From your response there seems to be a hint of faith, or at least a desire to want to believe in a God. I have a hard time trying to define myself, but right now it would probably be an agnostic wanting to be a Christian.
Mark, I don’t necessarily have a desire to believe in God, but a desire to believe in what is true, and if God is true then I want to believe in him.
I’d say any honest believer must be at least partially agnostic, in that they know that they cannot know completely.
Gideon, you said “The pull is toward gratitude, compassion, and worship.”
I feel those pulls too, though I more feel the feelings I had during worship, than a pull to worship something.
Mike,
I too am looking for truth, wherever that may lead me. I do have to admit, I do wish Christianity to be true. There are many reasons why I want it to be true, but none of them make it true. I am currently looking for truth in the resurrection. Mike, what books on the resurrections have you read? Would you recommend any of them? Thanks.
The only books I’ve read that dealt with the resurrection were when I was a Christian. My library is in such disarray that I couldn’t begin to find them now, I recently moved. Authors I enjoyed were Josh McDowell, Max Lucado, and Peter Kreeft. I still like what some of the latter two have to say, but McDowell, and most apologists, leave bad taste in my mouth now.
Let me tell you why I do not wish modern, conservative, evangelical Christianity to be true.
Because I know many good people who are not Christians and yet this brand of Christianity condemns them
Because the idea of an infinite being punishing finite beings for finite sins for eternity is both disgusting and ridiculous.
Because I can’t imagine why God would care what two adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom.
Because I would have to reconcile the monster God in the OT with the slightly less monstrous God in the NT, and then further water him down to make him at least decent, but then I’d be a liberal Christian, which is fine, but then I would no longer hold the version of Christianity true that I am rejecting.
I could go on, but I guess you’ll get the point.
I still believe a god of some sorts may exist, but I seriously doubt that any one religion on this mixed up planet of ours has nailed it 100%
Mike,
I get your point. I too have many of the same problems with Christians’ interpretations of the Bible. However that doesn’t really make or break whether Christianity is true or not. And like you said, I’m sure there’s not a single group that has nailed it 100%. In fact, is it even possible for our tiny limited brains to comprehend a god of the universe? So to some degree I’m ok with having many unanswered questions (I can’t possible solve them all), and also having many tough and uneasy subjects (like the OT God, hell, and homosexuality). I think it is ok to have differences in opinions on these non-salvation issues, and there are many Christians who struggle with these issues. So instead of focusing on the distracting issues that may never be resolved, I’m trying to focus on trying to find the truth on the real important questions: Did Jesus rise from the dead? Is there a God? The rest of my questions can fall where they fall. So back to the books I go…
I think it is very likely that a man named Jesus did some interesting stuff 2000 years ago, but that’s about where my belief ends. All the things people call evidence for the resurrection mean very little to me.
I find it hard to believe in a God who would create a scenario where salvation is even necessary.
Hello Mark,
Presupposing that we have the correct cannon of scripture, and essentially have today, what was originally written. (A separate discussion I’m not qualified to have!!! http://www.aomin.org)
Most of the New Testament are letters written from one believer to another. Therefore, what we’re really doing is eavesdropping on a conversation. More interestingly, we’re eavesdropping on a conversation between people who both claim to have seen some of the same miracles. (i.e. the author assumes the reader knows exactly what he’s talking about.)
For example, it would be one thing for me to write to you and say
“Hey Mark, I caught a 3 foot (is that big? I’m not a fisher of fish.) bass today.”
vs.
“Hey Mark, that bass I caught was amazing, wasn’t it? When you measured it, it came out to three feet!”
Now as an outsider, which letter would give me more confidence that a three foot bass was really caught?
Mike,
I agree, for me evidence is key, and that is where my searching is focused. I haven’t yet found anything, but I’m still searching. With regards to what you said about that it is “hard to believe in a God who would create a scenario where salvation is even necessary”, I’ve found a loose analogy with parent child relationships. At some point in order for a kid to grow up and mature, the parent has to let go and let the child make their own choices. Some choices that kids make are bad and hurt their relationships with their parents, and these relationships need to be fixed. The Christian point of view is that we screwed up our relationship with God, but we can’t fix it. So God had to come down to fix it. So salvation came out of the initial situation. This is just how I currently view it. I’d be interested in your thoughts.
David,
As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish. Because a 3 foot bass is HUGE! That would maybe even be a world record. I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t believe in a 3 foot bass, because I think it is technically possible. I’ve seen a bass before, I’ve seen large basses before, I’ve seen fishing shows in which people have caught large basses, I know there are other larger fishes out there, I know about mutations, I know about population pools, etc. So it wouldn’t be an insurmountable leap to believe in a 3 foot bass. However to make the leap to believe in something not seen, can’t be tested, can’t be proven, makes extraordinary claims, etc. is a different story.
I know you said it’s a loose analogy, but let’s try and tighten it up a bit.
“The Christian point of view is that we screwed up our relationship with God, but we can’t fix it.”
Actually, it’s that Adam and Eve screwed it up, so in your family analogy it’s like our big brother and sister were rebellious, so now we are all punished with a cursed world, and then we have to make a choice between Jesus and not-Jesus. If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God.
Having been a Christian for 20 years, at first it was hard to read the Bible without all the years of training that made the Bible fit together and rationalized all the bad parts, but the more I read, the more I was able to do it.
The Bible has some good stuff in it, but a lot of it is rather sick and twisted. This doesn’t lead me to atheism, but rather to the belief that if God exists, the Bible is certainly not his inerrant word, unless he’s a madman.
Hi Mark,
As a parent, my “goodness” is not defined solely by my love. Many times, I let my children make bad choices and then allow them to experience the consequence. Do I warn them first of what will happen? Absolutely. Am I powerful enough to physically restrain them from making those choices. Sure. Does it mean that I am a “bad” parent because I allow them to make their own choices? Or that I don’t love them because I allow them to experience the consequences of those choices?
One book in particular that helped me with the emotional side of my doubt was “Disappointment with God” by Philip Yancey. It also actually helped me to understand the Bible as one story, rather than all of the miscellaneous stories of various heroes I learned growing up.
Hi Mike,
Your last comment reminded me of something. I am the oldest in my family. My bio brother is close behind. A couple of years ago, my parents adopted four children. My oldest adopted brother is always complaining to me of all the freedoms he won’t have until he’s older because of my behavior as a teenager. I wouldn’t neccessarily say that my brother is being punished for what I did as a teenager, as much as my parents have changed their parenting style because of what I did.
In the same way, while the book of Romans does make clear that while we are all “in Adam” and therefore have inherited a sinful nature, we all have enough sinful behavior in our life to condemn ourselves. While the world itself changed as a result of the Fall, God doesn’t punish us for what Adam and Eve did. He punishes us for what we have done. Yet, because God is merciful He made a way for us to be made righteous- in Christ. Our sin is covered by His righteousness. For all those who are in Christ, God’s justice is satisfied.
~Natalie
Natalie,
Thanks for the book suggestion. Unfortunately, my doubt is more characterized as intellectual doubt. Sure there is the emotional side, but it arises out of my questioning and unbelief. Emotional doubt is a significant fraction of those who doubt, so maybe someone else can be helped by that. Thanks again.
“Disappointment with God” by Philip Yancey was one of the final nails in the coffin of my faith.
Natalie, defying God’s will is sin, if my only sin in my entire life was to steal a cookie, and I did not repent and accept Christ, I would go to hell…for stealing a cookie. A simplification yes, but a true representation of what the Bible teaches. How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime?
“As someone who doubts, I would have a hard time believing either story unless I saw the fish.” – Mark
But it’s an off-the-cuff remark. That was my point. Sometimes in scripture, a miracle is mentioned, without the author trying to make a point. It’s just mentioned in passing, because the author assumes the reader will know exactly what he’s talking about. This is far more believable, than if the miracle is mentioned in order to make a point.
“How is it just that a human can be punished infinitely for a finite crime?” – Mike
All sins are against God, not us. We are punished based on whom our sin is against. If I kill a cockroach, the neighbors dog, a neighbor, or the president… I will suffer different consequences. If God is infinitely good, worthy, holy, and just … wouldn’t any sin against him deserve infinite punishment? The question of justice only arises upon assuming God is not as majestic and glorious as the Bible claims.
If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite.
When presented with the question of hell, there are two paths to reconciliation. “Wow, Hell is bad, so God must be good, and we are evil.” or “We’re good, so hell must be unfair.” Personally, I think reality and scripture support the first. Nothing captures what humans are like scripture does… the only reason we live in a “civilized” society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil. Look what happens when humans have nothing to lose because they are already impoverished, or the laws do not condemn evil. (I’m sorry if you don’t like my obvious example: Nazi Germany)
Ahh, the depravity of man, it’s funny how non-Christian societies haven’t destroyed themselves yet isn’t it?
If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I’d say he has some issues.
“the only reason we live in a “civilized” society, is because we all have something to lose by acting evil.”
That’s hardly the only reason, that may prevent some people, but most people wouldn’t run off raping and pillaging if there were no God, only Christians seem to think that and frankly they scare me. If God is the only thing that stops them from being monsters, then what happens if they stop believing in God?
“If we choose not-Jesus we are tormented forever, either in fire or in separation from God.” – Mike
“If I only went to hell for three years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? If I only went to hell for six billion years for stealing a cookie, what would that say about God? It would say God is finite.” – David
“If God sends you to hell even for 30 seconds for stealing a cookie then I’d say he has some issues.” – Mike
Agreed.
Hell remains a problematic concept for me. I definitely oppose any view of hell as a fiery eternal torture. Retributive punishment, having no redemptive purpose, does not cohere with a God of love. As a kid, did you ever see how close you could hold your hand to a fire before you couldn’t take the pain anymore? Remember the sharpness of the pain, the intensity – and this from a distance! Or the people who jumped out of the towers on 9/11 rather than be burnt by the intense flames? How much more painful and cruel would a fiery hell be?
Yeah I know how Christians respond to this: God is holy also, and must punish sin. But he doesn’t. Certain theologies have abstracted justice into something that constrains God, so that God has to punish all wrong doing in order to maintain the moral order of the universe or his internal justice. They even say that the punishment of sinners adds to the glory of God. Bunk. This has led to the popular but misguided penal satisfaction view of atonement in which Jesus is punished by God in our place, so that his justice might be satisfied. But contrary to popular Christian thought, this is not the only view of the atonement.
One response to this is that it is all nonsense, so let’s be done with it and not worry about the details. Could be the way to go. Another possibility is that this view of hell and God and salvation is not biblical – I know, a big “who cares” from those who view the Bible as only a collection of ancient superstitious myths. But for those who are wrestling with considering the Bible to be in some way normative to the Christian faith (I agree modern notions of inerrancy are untenable), the biblical portrayal of God is important. This God is shown to punish in order to transform lives, but not for the sake of punishment itself. Corrective punishment, not retributive. This God is self-sacrificial and somehow takes the sin of the world upon himself in a supreme act of identification with humanity and lifts us up to become like him. The cross is not about God violently enabling himself to forgive us without upsetting the balance of cosmic justice.
So what the hell is hell all about? I see it as separation from God. But as Mike points out, this still sucks as an eternal destiny for a choice made in the flash of one lifetime. C.S. Lewis wrote a book titled the Great Divorce which depicted hell as a grey, drab world. Every day a bus would come that would take willing passengers to heaven. No one ever got on for various reasons. I tend to think that hell does not have to be eternal. That the God who loves and wants reconciliation continues drawing those separated from him. The biblical support for the eternal duration of hell is far from definite. Keeping the door open is more consistent with the God revealed in Jesus.
My last point is I really don’t think Jesus was looking for people to follow him out of fear of hell. If we say that the threat of hell is the only motivator for decent behavior then we are in trouble.
Good thoughts Kyle2. I tend to think people are pretty good at making their own hell. Did you ever see What Dreams May Come? I always found the concept of hell in that movie interesting.